33 thoughts on “Ag Envy?”

1. One must always differentiate, and larger operations can always crowd out the small players, which is an essential part of CSAs as Zuck observes.  I wouldn’t view Pete’s or Intervale as bad, greedy actors, but if you know of alternatives it might be good for all to patronize them.  Probably less of an issue if more folks actually bought into CSAs overall…

2. Please support the small farmer.

   Pete’s Greens is doing fine, he’s got great contracts with restaurants and everything else.

   But these guys are relatively huge players in the small pond of Vermont.  It’s not that they are evil multinational corporations, but that they are doing fine on their own.

   What David is saying is that they are too large to be properly considered as CSAs.  Don’t go for the hype and fall into thinking that buying from the big places that you are supporting the small farmer that the CSA model is meant for.

   I hear David saying that when you decide to buy into a CSA that you go out of your way to find the actual small-scale farmer like High Ledge Farm, or any of the other mom-n-pop home businesses.

   When you hit the scale of Pete’s or Intervale, you aren’t a CSA anymore.

3. How we ended up with every hardware store and drugstore and grocery store and (fill in the blank), having the same corporate name on it.  We talk local but always go for that low prices bait.

   Dave makes a valid point in the “use it or lose it” context.  

4. but I think the two middle paragraphs could have been pruned and the message would still hold.
   
   Is Pete’s really a threat? Is the CSA market saturated?

5. Pete’s greens is not the problem.  

   Corporate e-coli baking, ground-water-contaminating, subsidy-sucking & environmentally degrading pollution-spewing unsustainable monoculture Is..Our..Enemy.

   I own the smallest CSA in Washington Co.  I am, I never intend to be, and I am incapable of being in the “big leagues” with Pete’s Greens.  So what?

   People like me who sell 50, or so, half shares of a pig or lamb per year are as critical to the movement to secure local, sustainably grown and/or ethically raise food, as “big guys” like Pete.

   The email written above sounds small and narrow. The big agribusinesses want to divide and conquer us. They also what us to eat subsidized shit too. The tone of David’s “what about us littler guys email” sounds like a plaintiff wail, from a fellow traveler, who has already been divided or conquered by the corporate interests that threaten our food’s safety.  

   Supporting Pete’s Greens or a small CSA, is not the issue.  The issue is supporting local agriculture in all of its healthiest and most sustainable forms. Supporting Pete’s Greens AND small CSAs is the answer.  The two are not, and cannot ever be, mutually exclusive.

6. not an attack on Pete’s Greens.

   We all celebrate Vermont successes, like Ben & Jerry’s and Green Mtn. Roasters, especially when they remember the Vermont ethics that brought them that success.  But we do have to remain mindful that, at a certain point in achieving that success, they passed beyond the local incubator stage that CSA’s also represent.

   I would imagine this is just one farmer’s expression of concern that the public  resource advantages enjoyed  by CSA’s not disappear from the grasp of smaller farms as they are strained to service larger enterprises that are well-on-their-way to full market success.

7. A good discussion, here is some background and a few clarifications-

   My posting was not out of the blue.  The day before there had been a posting indicating there is a pick up in the neighborhood for Pete’s Greens.  It referenced the fire that Pete had last year as a way to connect folks with who Pete’s is.  It might have been helpful if the anonymous poster to Odum had included that as it would have helped with the context.

   Because the prior posting referenced the fire as opposed to marketing his food based on what they have to offer (many good things, they are good farmers and good marketers), I felt that it was important to remind folks that there are other CSA farms based more locally right here in Chittenden County.  

   I felt it was important for people to know that many of those farms were also suffering (in this case due to the weather) financial challenges. They did not have the media clout given the widespread effects of the weather etc.  Unfortunately I hit “send” instead of “save” (to review the posting) before I sent it, so I failed to include this in the posting.

   I am not sure whether the area is saturated or not.  But I have experienced the changes in the marketplace having run our CSA for 13 years. For many years the CSA share supply was growing in concert with the growing demand.  However, this past year has seen the number of CSA’s offering their wares go from 15 to 30.  And then when some have joined, it has been all in, adding 1, 2 or even 300 in a single year. Most had been growing by 10-50 per year and that kept the balance good for everyone.  

   There also used to be a lot more cooperation between the CSA’s with folks helping steer potential consumers towards another CSA that might have a more convenient pick up spot or a better sized share for the potential member.  Now it just seems like (some) folks are gunning for every member they can get and will not stop adding pick ups or pushing their wares until they have every new person.  This is sad for me in our great “community”.  This pattern seems to be most prevalent with the Food Hub and Pete’s Greens, so that is also why the focus was sparked.

   I have had members indicate to me that they were buying from one of these two because their spot was more convenient.  I suppose that is the marketplace and I should just suck it up.  Thankfully we have had members try one of those two and then come back due to either quality, choice or connection.  But as I state in the posting, we have held our own (our “new sites” are our farm, 3 years ago, when we moved production out of the Intervale and Temple Sinai in South Burlington. Not the handfuls to dozens that some do).  So we have our issues; additional sites, more work, same share numbers, return per work going down, but that was not the point, there are smaller farms who have really suffered.

   Another issue is the organic, local, pastured, natural, certified vs. not certified discussion. We learn something new every year that we are certified.  Farms that are not certified, but claim to “use organic practices” are not intentially violating anything, but I know of at least one that uses biotelo plastic (instead of petroluem plastic) and that is still not allowed because of the unknown ingredients.  Many consumers also think that pastured pork and chicken are essentially organic, any pay a premium for it.  But they do not realize those animals are still 70-90% grain (except for Walter Jeffries pigs and chickens which I believe are 100% foragers…a real pioneer).  That means GMO, pesticide, herbicide, huge industrial etc., unless it is organic grain.  I only add this because many think that all of the organic veggie farms that offer meat also are offering organic meats in their options and most are not (Pete’s included…and that is why I went on this tangent).

   I also want to clarify that the Intervale Community Farm (ICF) and the Intervale Food Hub are two very different things.  We have heard that many consumers are confused.  One (ICF) is (I believe) the oldest CSA is Chittenden County and really is the “model” CSA; on farm pick up, pick your own of some crops, and unless there is a rediculous surplus, 100% of the food goes to the memberships.  The Intervale Food Hub is a wholesale aggregator from 20 farms with the ability to substitute one farms products with another if there is a crop failure.  Great for the consumer, but really changing the meaning of CSA as far as the relationship between the farm and the members. It helps the wholesale farmers with new markets and better pricing, but does it through hugely subsidized, grant funded marketing that the other 29 farms do not have.  Maybe this is something for a much longer discussion.

   Part of my posting was about that relationship.  Size does not necessarily mean that the relationship has to suffer.  ICF had the most members in Chittenden County for many years, but the sense of community is still huge.  They are also focussed on being a CSA and their food goes directly to the members.

   So I could have made many of these issues more clear, and I did not.  It also might have gotten too long (as this posting has).  But it is rather complex.  Thanks again for a good discusion.

    

8. I suspect the the implied slam of those “that…who have connections to famous people (through their employees)” was a dig at Amy Skelton, an employee of Pete’s greens. If so, it seems out of line and unnecessarily personal in order to make a point.

9. I found it curious that while pressing people to consider what a CSA really is, David Zuckerman typed this:

   I hope folks will consider what a CSA really is.  Community Supported Agriculture.  The smaller farms really depend on the local community to make the model work.  Those that ship food all over the state and who have connections to famous people (through their employees) to raise money, and those that use non-profit grant money to compete with these smaller farms are moving away from the soul of what CSA really means.

   I typed “”Full Moon Farm” David Zuckerman Grant” into Google and found this link:

   http://www.vlt.org/news-public…

   In the article, “The LaPlatte River Headwaters: Hinesburg’s Ecological and Agricultural Integrity Gets a Huge Lift”, it states that:

   The Castanea Foundation, acting as a conservation buyer, stepped in early on, improving the farmland and making it affordable to its new owners, Rachel Nevitt and David Zuckerman.

   “We had been looking for land since 2001,” says Rachel. “A lot of farmland looks good on paper, but when we got to the Bissonette Farm we thought, ‘Wow, this is perfect.'”

   The article also tells of a couple of the funding sources that were utilized in order to acquire the 600 acre Bissonette Family in Hinesburg, of which, 155 acres is now “Full Moon Farm” .

   This discovery (of bats) led to a major Recovery Land Acquisition grant from the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service and the very first Landowner Incentive Grant from Scott’s (Darling’s) department (The Vermont Dept. of Fish and Wildlife”).

   Along with this:

   The state responded with $220,000 in funding from the Clean and Clear program.

   This story from The Trust for Public Land also sheds some light on funding for the Bissonette property.

   http://www.tpl.org/news/press-…

   The Vermont Land Trust, in partnership with the Castanea Foundation, will conserve the farmland along Hines Road and Gilman Road and transfer it to new owner-operators who will purchase the property at its agricultural value. This portion of the property will have a perpetual farmland conservation easement placed on it and ensures the property will be affordable for future farm owners.

   So, are we to believe the author of the note above who appears to be crying foul at being a disadvantaged “smaller farm” CSA struggling to compete with big mean Pete’s Greens, or should we consider the fact that the author’s very own “Full Moon Farm” apparently benefited from a tremendous amount of state and local resources in order to exist in the way it does today?  

10. Was the “Clean and Clear Program” that was initiated in 2003 (and still exists today) created by, under the supervison of, or in any way responsible to, the the House Agency of Natural Resources and Energy Committee, the House Agricultural Committee, or the House Ways and Means Committee during David Zuckerman’s tenure on those committees?

11. First-

    I have been at the farm all day and thinking about the discussion that my posting launched.  For one, I want to apologize to Pete.  My real gripes are with the food hub, but he took the brunt of it.  I worded my thoughts poorly and I want to apologize.  He has worked very hard for many many years to create the farm that he has.  I know that first hand.  I apologize for going to far in my local front porch forum discussion.

    As for other comments made, my posting was to try to point out that there are other local CSA’s (please remember, where I live is right near the Intervale) that have had various sufferings of late as well.  I thought that folks should consider some of those smaller farms, if one of their reasons in selecting a CSA was to help in their troubles (hence the reference to Petes since the posting for him referenced his fire).

    I meant no dig at Amy.  The reality is that there were connections at the farm.  Great fundraisers were organized.  I simply stated that other farms do not have those connections.  Folks that wanted to drag it further is up to them.

    I also made no pitch for my own farm.  With respect to grants etc., we indicated (at the time we purchased the farm) that we were very fortunate to have been able to buy our land at a price that makes farming possible.  Please remember, we can not sell the land for added value, it simply brought the price into a range where a farm could work it and possibly work out a living.  Even with the land trust buying the development rights, we are approximately $500,000 in debt between the land, equipment and trying to upgrade/modify the barn for a mixed vegetable and meat operation.  I am not crying that we are in debt.  That is part of starting or expanding a business.  I just wanted to clarify this becuase of some of the comments made.

    Again. My apologies to Pete.

    As for the Intervale Food Hub…that is another matter.

12. I saw this email as whiny (sorry David), but one that raised a verboten gripe I’ve heard myself from other sources, and anything verboten is innately appealing to me – and a public figure jumping into such a topic is just too much for me to ever resist.

    But let’s stick to the topic and not use it as an excuse to pile on to one person or another, ‘kay?

Comments are closed.