I’m back in Boston, blogging away. Pardon the paraphrasing and staccato text, humans are notoriously bad at speaking slowly, and I’m notoriously bad at typing that fast.
All typos, misspellings and incoherence is mine and mine alone.
See below the fold for text from today (so far). More to come!
Women of Green
New US construction uses 1/2 of all resources in this country. Resource consumption in us new construction has increases 80% in the last 30 yrs.
Only a small fraction of our toxic chemicals are captured, resulting in millions of tons of toxic chemicals.
Hyper focusing on single issues leads to false and misleading stats, such as energy use index, vs total energy (sunk energy)
When you pull one string of nature, you find it connected to everything else. In a sustainable world., we are all connected and the solutions must be connectd as well. We need ecosystem designs that utilze and sustain our environment, We have changed our future and we must now act as additional chance agents to cope with those changes and mitigate the effects.
Rachel Carson, HJane Jacobs, Donna Meadows – original women of green. These women counsel respect for the past, humility in the present and hope for the future. Without hope for the future, what is the point?
Kate Goldstsein
My voice, clear and true, and often unfiltered has gotten me in troubl over and over again. I learned it was OK to talk out of turn. I learned how not to talk for 45 minutes at a atime. By Jr. yr I’d finished my physics curriculum and thought that’s what I wanted to do. Then one day, I was sitting at the grenhouse across from physics department at Brown, I walked across the stret to talk to a physics prof to tell him I wanted to work there. Worked there from age 16 to 21.
I flooundered when I entered college, asked for help, then explored 17 diffrent classes to find what worked for me. Tried engineering : hey this is like physics, but with all the stuff I don’t like. I found the environmental dpartmetn and found that I could have a lot of fun doing the things I liked to do there. Then I went to NESEEA, got a look at solar panels, loved the idea, and asked to be hired. Next week I was putting up solar panels. Applied to PHD programs, went to TX, didn’t really fit. Went to conference at MIT Fraunhoffer Sustainable Energy, came back here and tried to work for Fraunhoffer, and had no chance of getting into MIT. So I
PHD thesis involving: Using IR to determine R-value of home w/o the
NSEA is the only place where it I feel no matter how many hours I work, it fels like an even trade. Every day I look around in awe, just likeI did at 12 yrs old.
Jacquelyn Henke
I am a woman of green today because of zood – the need to preserve, educated and repopulate. It became my mission to become a zoo architect, and joined groups to help animals survive in the wild.
I learned about our living style and its impact on the animals locations.
My grad school work brought me to sustainablity and real estate.
You have to kbnow your environmental story. In New England, my car is a Jeep 2001 vehicle kept on the road. Mostly use public transit.
Most opportunities hav come from volunteering. Find a mentor, to hlp you reach your goals. Then be a mentor.
Be your own advocate.
Know your audience – just because your idea is green and saving a planet, doesn;’t mean pople will support you. Need to know my audience and their motivations. Tailor to ach. Sometimes fuzzy, business, preachy, fight.
Stay Current
Need to know qs to ask to sparate greenwash from green fact.
My own case gets strongr w/discussion.
Volunteer
Allows me to give back, but every org has led to good pro experiences through networking.
Find your passion
W/o passion you won’t be happy. Reinvent your self without losing your self.
If not me, who, if not now, when?
If I don’t do it, who else can. If it doesn’t get done when will it.
Sheryl Sandberg: Why we have too few women leaders at www.TED.com.
When people try to dismiss me as a “tree hugger” I say, well you can call me that, but I am a woman who takes responsibility for my role on the planet, and isn’t it a shame you don’t do the same thing.
Bomee Jung
Greening affordable housing. Started in a windowless room. It was an exciting time to work in a tech startup, but the products I was producing didn’t have any real connection. I then spnt a yr in China, and realized my understanding of environment (trees, wild lands) was very narrow.
Came home and started GreenHome NYC, uses peer learning model to connect people to info. Free monthly forums, 2x annual green buildings tour, send volunteerst o speak w/coop and condo boards.
Came to boston to MIT City Planning program.
Went to work for Enterprise non-profit affordable housing organization. Bring low income folks out of poverty with healthy affordable housing.
Green Communitis initiative.
Outcomes: using criteria = under 2k investment gave nearly 5k savings to invest in things that didn’t have monetary benefit. 1/2 NYC bilding stock is older than 1945.
Run a weatherization program. Do th work, measure the outcome. We pay for 2 yrs utility bill monitoriing. Use a comprehensive approach, and measure all the way through the process – including teaching superintendents to run buildings well.
Goal 50% green buildings in our portfolio by (date?)
Lessons learned by being a software engineer:
Transparency improves quality lowers costs, and speeds innovation.
Release early, release often: iterative development gets you valuable feedback. More peer review brings better results.
“What ought to b, can be – with the will to make it so.”
Charlotte Matthews
VP sustainability for Related Real Estate, 15 bil buildings.
Family moved to Hong Kong. I feared that my saved trees from childhood would be killed by
Worked to prevent oil drilling.
Maj in env. science w/focus on architecture: ready for a job that doesn’t exist.
I’m the only sustainability expert in the country. I didn’t have the expertise to be innovative. I then joined a green building.
Why consult on Green Buildings when you can build them? Want a job? YES! Green building is now taking off.
Developers Bank of AMERICA TOWER REJECTS LEED. But I get called in, they go LEED.
Housekeeping starts throuwing away our mugs. My job now includes dumpster diving. you can’t be proud.
How about using CFLs for construction lighting.
Went to work on building Snowmass village in CO. Used that as a
We have 1 project, need to cut costs, or get laid off. We save lots and lots by using CFLs.
NYC is greening its codes. I represented Related’s chair on the committee. We can do that, we already have. Green wins!
Tomorrow is a big open space of endless possibility.
——-
Bernice Radle
Buffalo NY.
Began as a guitar playre environmental science major. Want to make old buildings energy efficient. Moved to Buffalo because of old crappy buildings. Join a band, asked where to find a job. Joined Horizon real estate firm, convinced them to let me retrofit their old crappy buildings. Turns into a 16 building 350 units project. It’s the biggest private sector project in Buffalo. They named a DAY after our real estate company!
Then I went to college, and started learning about buildings. Urban planning dosn’t teach you building stuff. I’m meeting these mentors and geeks, piecing together how buildins work. Which was good, cuz we were about to start retrofitting.
While doing the retrofit, I helped create a tenant car sharing program, too.
Air sealing, spray foaming roof. I got invited to NESA, didn’t really want to go, cuz I wanted to go to a music festival, but I decided to anyway and boy am I glad. Got NYSERDA scholarship.
Then spoke at NYSAFA as only affordable housing retrofit.
Dollars during the production process, saving 36% savings.
Left Horizon, started doing audits. Horizon called me to do their utility assessment.
Do I go to Columbia? Do I stay w/Buffalo nergy? What do I do. THank you to NESEA and my mentors. They’re the reason I’m here today (I man I did the work, but…) they’re the reason I’m here today.
Pat Sapinsley
Work for Good Energies. I was an architect, but now work for VC fund.
We do good stuff. You need us.
We invest in solar, wind, and efficiency products.
Electrochromic glass, tints based on user need (harvest heat in winter, reject in summer.)
LEDs: DOE SSO web site – use the ones they recommend.
Wireless, batteryless lighting controls. One co uses the elect from your fingr on th switch for power to send signal.
Smart grid.
Tell refrigerator to not be on during peak el;ec use.
Building managment system controls that retrofi.
HVAC, make ice overnight, run coolant through the ice during day in peak electric use time, so the daytime use is reduced.
12 yrs w/my children – they redirected me in an env. direction I wouldn’t have gone in w/o my kids.
The diversion got me into all sorts of things – community service, parks organization (save the elm trees), park over rail yards, bike path. I got more env. learning and started to teach, which led to research for 12 yrs at home on my computer. You don’t do that if you’re servicing clients everyday and working on their stupid kitchen and bath renovations. The kids gave me the opportunity to change careers (at a very advanced age). This computer is a university in a box.
Don’t listen to that stupid little voice that says you can’t do that, you’re a mommy.
77 yr old came into office looking for investment. I said we were reluctant to fund someone so old. He said, “My father just died at over 100 yrs old after publishing his second book, I figure I have a 30 yr career ahead of me.”
Q&A
Q: Best panel I’ve seen yet. Would you speak more about mentorship, how did you seek that out, what qualities did you look for in a mentor, what stumbling blocks did you encounter?
A: Go drink with your mentors! The conversations late at night, about super geeky stuff very helpful.
We have a lot of mentors. We’re making a lot of decisions right now – everyone I’ve met here has given me some advice – really good advice.
I look at people who have the qualities I want to have, and sit down and ask.
Mentoring: You’re not a successful mentor until you notice your mentee knows more than you do. It’s a proud moment.
Q: NO need to apologize for an all woman panel. I’d love to see an all-male panel talk about the challenges they face in this realm.
A: For students: NESEA is one of the most nurturing organizations. Find the NESEA person who is expert in your field, and let them know your interest, and they will b as excited as you are.
A: Most of my mentors were men. Green men are kind of like women in the best ways that women are. I’ve really benefited from that.
If you’re a female programmer, you’re sure to be the only girl in the room at a gathering. I feel like I’m too old to have this kind of internal conflict about all this, but I do.
Women as mentors have to give to each other all the time. Find other colleagues – be giving to them as well, no matter how much or little experience you have.
Q2: At building science conference what’s with architect basing. I went knowing no one, and every one knew me at the end.
Q: This panel is not about singling out women because they’re women. It’s because bst weatherization tech I ever knew was a woman. The best architect I ever met was a woman. … because they listen the first time.
Q: My career path resonates w/yours (1st speaker). Could you go back to your career?
A; Green round table sustainable performance institute. I was architect for 12 years, and dysfunction in the industry prompted me to work from the outside to fix the dysfunction I saw – policy, education, hand-holding – touching parts of the system that need change.
Was doing clinical field work for Ethiopian and Russian refugees in Israel, and went to pick up Ethiopian family – the Russians wanted to kill the new Ethiopian arrivals. Turns out to be a cultural disconnect, why not have a half for the Ethiopian folks to use a bath house to support their cultural aversion to using bathroom in the place where they live and eat.
Q: Mothers talk about work live balance.
A: It’s a myth. There’s no such thing as work life balance. don’t think thre was really any balance. I think life was really rich and full. Balance … no. No balance,.
A: I am an over-breeder. I have 4 kids, I carry that with me, although they’re strident activists. There’s no balance, my husband is the one who manages. Every 4 months he has a 24 hr meltdown and is then good to go. I suspend my bitchiness for those 24 hrs and let him rant at me. Gender issues, in traditional architectural practice, wanted to work ny 80 hrs w/part of those hours at home. The men in my office at that time, were not spending time with their kids.
I will be intentionally supportive of family issues if I start a business. No better time than when on maternity leave to start a business. The most important thing is the support system. Do what makes you most satisfied as a parent or a worker.
My husband has never said don’t do it, he has said you’re nuts. He has never said you’re supposed to be doing something ls – and that’s anincredible blessing.
I’ve only ben doing this for 1.5 yrs, so I’m sure there’s a breakdown impending somewhere. I really appreciate my company’s attitude for family friendliness. It applies also to the men in the company. I think we all need to do more to create family friendly companies. It’s really hard when you’re in a position and are trying to create space for a family while you’re working it.
Supportive partner wholeheartedly agree. We’re perfectionists, and now I have to be grateful for what is done, get used to clothes on the floor. GHive up the control freak thing.
Q: How did you feel about your own parents work life balance
A: My mother was so far ahead of her time (minority leader, ran for lt gov.) it never occured to me that I should do anything other than this. Grateful to role models from the 60s.
A: My mom is a doctor. Decided to give up training and keeping current, stay home, teach us what love was. She then went and relearned and became current, opened her own practice. I learned about boldness and fearlessness from my mom. It will ebb and flow.
A: Other perspective – I love my mother. She was a stay at home mom. We didn’t think she liked having children. She made me as independent as I am. She would hand me the phone when it was on hold. Eventually the kids grew up, she got a divorce, had to start over at age 65. All 3 of the children decided that the woman of the house is going to work, because if you’re satisfied in your life, you’ll be a more present parent.
A: Quality instead of quantity. You have to do it, because I have to do it, and we have to do it, so do it. I haven’t started my family yet (there’s still time). It’s not going to be just me and the cats, thank god, cuz that’s a scary thought. You just learn, there are different stories and ways to cope. Along with the college funds, jsut start a therapy fuind, and you’ll be alls et.
A: My parents just don’t care, which has made me fully independent. Let them do what they want (well not just what they want), because it will make them independent and strong.
A: The level of dysfunction in my family has given me the skills to do what I need in my life. All of my family was small business owners and entrepreneur. My assumption was that that’s the baseline, so when I had a job at a desk, it was just weird.
Oh the walking on eggshells thing makes you a good listener.
A: I just have to say one of my most memorable fights with my husband was “You’re talking to me like I’m a contractor.” And I said “I am no, I’d NEVER talk to a contractor this way!”
———–
Taking Stock: Where are we now in New England
Navigating Policy and Programs for Energy Efficiency
Tina Halfpenny
Mass Save has been redesigned.
National Grid, international elctricity and gas company.
– provides nat gas to 3.5 mil customers, MA, RI, much of NY state, and NH. 1.1 milon long island, $134 mil in gas efficiency programs, $367 mil in elec efficiency.
MA Green Communiies Act of 2008
Changed efficiency in MA, required admins to develop state wide 3 yr plan providing all available cost effective efficiency for MA
Required ounsel be set up
– DOER, residential customers LI weatherisazion, fuel assistance networked, env community, C&I users,
Program is designed to drive deeper and broader savings. Market was already mature in terms of achieving low hanging fruit.
Performance lighting rather than just lightbulbs. WHole system building efficiency, rather than just attic insulation. Manaement systems addd to buildings.
The key to comprehensive savings is much more costly up front.
Utilities committed to achieving 2.5% (elect) or 1.1% (gas) their revenues through efficiency by 2012. Savings must be validated through evaluation and verification efforts.
2.6 Mwh goal, costing 1.3 bil dollars
5.7mm btu gas, costing $355m gas funds
Gas/electric program integration and seamless delivery across program. Makes for much more consistent and predictable.
Funded by System benefit charges (util bill), forward market capacity, RGGI funds, seeking others.
NY State:
Energy Efficiency Portfolio Standard
Goal of 15×15.
BROAD STAKEHOLDER engagement, DPS staff, electric and gas utilities, NYSERDA and consumer reps. Funded by systems benefit charge.
– Objectives:
– Moderate expected increases in bills
– enhanced system reliability
– moderate increases in wholesale prices
– and others.
Turned this into 3 yr plan for NY.
3.5M MWh savings in 3 yrs, cost of $955
4.3 MMbtu, cost of 390M
Administrators are behind in savings target to date, combined goals set for 2011.
Learned (in many cases the hard way), so proactively working on 2012 – 2015 plans.
Program design, program implementation, program monitoring and evaluation (back to program design)
Lessons Learned
New programs require more time, resources, infrastructure
Mature progs require better intelligence, or they can result in higher cost for the savings gained
multiple program admins have high potential for broader mkt penetration
multiple program admins requires tremendous coordination.
Blair Hamilton – VEIC co-Founder
“What Would Blair Do?” is a question many ask themselves as other states implement programs.
VT Policies: Gains, Frustrations and Vision
Efficiency utility, now operating under a franchise-like regulatory appointment. Was previously a contractor w/a program administration.
Feed-in Tariff – has been more than well-received. Further enhancements expected.
Revitalized alignment of interest on energy issues between administration and legislature. SHould be able to move some policy that has languished for a while.
VT was the 4th state whose legislature passed PACE enabling laws. (some roadblocks, will come back to that).
Building labeling and disclosure law: realtors are resistant – they are reading it correctly, that it’s not in their best interest, which is making it difficult to come down to a deal.
Heating and Process Fuel Efficiency: we need to be comprehensive, not have different programs with different administrators for the different energy sources in a building. We have a 10 – 1 resource problem: funds into electric efficiency (5% of rate revenue goes into electric efficiency, we’ve been over 2% a year in efficiency). 80% oil heat, 20% propane heat. That’s where our CO2 is coming from. We now have a mandate for Efficiency VT
50 mil fund for elect efficiency, 5 mil for oil & propane savings (sourced from RGGI and forward capacity funds). Looks like tax on heating fuels will be only/best source for revenues for this.
It’s becoming increasingly difficult to think what’s to be done in terms of meeting climate goals, when making our decisions based on current economics, which has us on a path of 1/4 of the pace we need to be on to meet climate goals. Policy guidance doesn’t exist to support moving above that line.
Financing:
– Pace V2 (letting go of primary mtg position)
– Pilots using loan loss reserves and guarantees.
– Pre-qualifying all customers for a program for loans.
Expanded Role of Efficiency Utility
– Mandate to regulate unregulated fuels
– 20 yr planning now in hands of Eff VT.
— goals and budgets for efficiency are based on 20 yr period, revised and assessed every 3 yrs.
– Smart grid
Governor is talking about 3%/yr as achievable goal.
VIsions being put fort for policy driven by climate goals
Seriously asking, “Why not net zero in building sector by 2050?” Tackle that as a goal, work back to the policies that will get us there.
To achieve Zero Carbon by 2050:
Efficiency to get average of 60% reduction in all existing buildings, 20% zero-carbon energy supply onsite; 20% from de-carbonized electric grid. All new construction zero-energy.
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Generally speaking, I tried to pit the prior speakers against each other. VEIC provides consulting to RI. When that very gentle, polite Scudder Parker is too polite to National Grid, I feel like whacking him a little bit.
Decoupling (*need more info?) turned battlefield into cooperative effort w/National Grid since last year.
Every economy is shaped by how it obtains and uses energy.
When I used that platitude in Newport, I observed Newport was a center of the energy economy in N. America. In 18th century, you had some wind, lots of wood, occasional water power. But most energy came from muscles – animal muscles and human muscles. Th civil war was a war over they type of energy to use: muscles in the south, mechanization in the north.
How are we obtaining energy now – from what does it come?
How are we using it now?
We’re doing a good job on efficiency side w/least cost approach. We’re among the strong performing states. Provided grant funding to National Grid to let National Grid do efficiency for deliverable fuels. This way customers could get full menu of efficiency services from one place.
Ingredients for success:
Organizational infrastructure that’s coherent.
Strategies that are intermediate term, annually updated (good strategic planning)
Revenue stream
We have these for efficiency.
If you have those 3 things, you are likely to make progress.
I think least-cost procurement ideas tied to system benefit charges, based in defined subsidy: we said we’re shifting from defined subsidy model to economic model where sky is the limit as long as it’s cost is justifiable via savings.
However, renewables model in RI is lacking organizational infrastructure to oversee getting it done, lack strategic planning, lack funding streams.
With regard to the funding streams, we have to do the same on the renewables side as we did on the efficiency side – go from subsidy models to economic models. Engage in better long term thinking, and recognize that it’s not just one revenue stream: seed capital to start projects, funding for customer-sited/customer-used projects, funding for primarily feed-to-grid projects.
We have to be willing to fight National Grid on this one.
I slogged through Grid’s binder o’ bashing, and talked through bit by bit, and they found that maybe what we were asking wasn’t so unreasonable after all.
We show you how not to progress when you look at how we do renewables, and how to progress when you look at what we do for efficiency.
Remember, Every society is shaped by how it obtains and uses energy. In the changing economy, how will we be obtaining and using energy? It’s my job in RI to find the answers to those questions and make it work to the benefit of the constituency.
Q&A
Q: Thoughts about next steps to move to a policy context where we can persue deep energy retrofits? (cost effectiveness is currently hampering those efforts)
A: Using current criteria for investments, which ignore climate change and carbon, to determine cost effectiveness and which assume that the cost of electricity 20 yrs from now will be the same as today. There is another way to look at this (which is the case already in EU countries): Not total resource cost, not cost-effectiveness, but what measures are the least-cost measures to get us to the goal.
Every time we do a new study, it says the cost of energy won’t go up. When we ask about major disruptions in availability/war. The answer is “that won’t happen.” This makes the costs look
A: That’s a ridiculous way to do things (using faked numbers showing same energy cost in future as today). I have to do many things. One of my “unwholesome” pleasures is codes – getting into the codes, like harmonizing building codes w/fire codes. One of my ideas is that 40 – 50 yrs ago, we put in place housing maintenance and occupancy codes (indoor plumbing, etc.) required to live in a building. These codes are 40 – 50 yrs old, and as long as you can get the lousy furnace to heat to 60 degrees, you’re ok. At some point, we’re going to have to come to grips w/the antiquated nature of the codes applying to existing buildings and structures.
There’s no way to make sense of low-income assistance unless we have floor on acceptable standards for building performance. I’m confronted by the fact of antiquated codes when trying to make fuel affordable for low-income residents.
As long as there is no effective floor, then falling all the way to the bottom will LOOK like the least expensive way to go. But we KNOW that’s not true – it’s much more effective in the long run.
A: Some of the limitations in financing, utility is administrator – it’s frustrating we have these parameters to work under, because if the private sector isn’t delivering these services ()
Innovative products, like Micro CHP is drying up due to lack of infrastructure to support it. Solar thermal isn’t taking off, because of lack of infrastructure.
Carbon reduction isn’t considered in the parameters that dictate the efficiency programs. The parameters we are allowed to consider are very limiting. We are all remiss if we don’t put aggressive focus on changing the codes and standards.
MA is working toward some of this w/the stretch code:
http://www.google.com/search?q…
Q: Do states compare their energy programs? it took NY 1.5 yrs to get started on their 3 yr plan. Would it be better if they met and prevented reinvention of the wheel.
A: Not formally. RGGI is one place where some states are working together. Informal least-cost procurement, renewable energy portfolio standards. NASEO (national assoc of energy officers)
Q: What do we need to do to make these programs fuel blind? Elec vs oil vs propane, renewables vs everything else. How do we take care of the orphan children in our energy programs?
A: In VT, we have 19 different utilities, and one efficiency utility. We keep chipping away, we do the best we can, look at financing to address funding inequities when we don’t have the subsidies. If we were working against a carbon reduction goal, instead of working against individual fuel goals, we would go much further toward the right mix.
A: Someone needs to file an oil efficiency bill in MA. We do have a carbon goal, and we need to revisit benefit cost model, delivery model. We need to look at the codes for now, the next phase, future phases.
Q: Session on zero net energy buildings and houses: It’s pretty easy to build. The problem is can you get a zero net energy occupant? Looking for something other than a monthly mailing with a smiley face…
A: That’s something we’re struggling with w/the home energy report each month. When we audit, we’re seeing something different than what can appear on your bill. Your bill isn’t going to say “cut from 7 large screen TVs to 2”).
How do you control plug load? And people are spending more time at home, working from home, etc.
A: When I designed use of ARRA funds in RI, I was looking at behavioral economics. Is it clear, simple to do, and are my neighbors doing it? If my neighbor is doing it, and I’m as smart as they are, so I can do it too. Which leads people advantageous herd behavior. Decided that required projects in every single municipality, in a way that people could see and think “I can do it, too.” Th circular in the mail makes it look easy but doesn’t make it clear that the neighbor is doing it….
Q: (my comment re: yard signs)
A: We’re underestimating the power of competition and funding (towns competed to become communities).
Q: Your job could be that warming is serious – really serious. So many people don’t want to make any decisions. Need greater education. How about at a certain rate of usage, you hav to pay more?
A: (no A)
Q: Greenest city in Europe on track to be fossil fuel free by 2030. Expecting 50% reduction by 2015.
It’s similar to any city in New England in terms of resources. Biomass CHP heating seems to set it apart. If we’re not talking about that as part of the mix, I think we’re collectively deluding ourselves. Burlington, Montpelier, Brattleboro, Randolph, … have been trying to implment for 3 – 4 yrs. Is there anyone looking at state policy on district heating?
A: No experts on district heating on panel. We have seen large scale development proposals with innovative district energy components, but it’s not a state policy. These are big developments.
A: NH is struggling with a thermal Renewable Portfolio Standard policy to try to support these.
Note: MA has an Alternative Portfolio Standard, worth looking at.
MA clean energy center is working toward Solar Hot Water.
Q: 100% renewables, how do we keep the power on 24×7? Storage?
A: There are talks
A: In Europe they’ve determined that xmission is more affordable than storage.
Q: As an energy education coordinator, I have ARRA money to visit low-income people whose homes have been weatherized, and bring behavioral social marketing to them to help ensure the behaviors will make the most of this.
A: National Grid compares control group of users with high users in a monthly report group, and telling them how their use compares to their neighbors’ use. It’s getting people to act.
Q: Working on some community mobilization, the research at international level shows behavior change can bring people to make 7% – 10% reduction all by itself. We have giveaways, prizes, fun events, and so on. Turning it back to what we CAN do, makes it more fun – a positive effort instead of a negative focus. We also need a common language of carbon. Carbon didn’t come up as a metric when looking to introduce solar hot water.
A: (not really a question)