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On Beyond IRV

by: odum

Mon Nov 27, 2006 at 00:47:23 AM EST


Frequent visitors will recall that I have written in favor of Instant Runoff Voting, as have Jack and mataliandy. They will also probably recall that I am not wildly enthusiastic about it. To an extent, it's because I am cautious about any policy proposal that has become an "article of faith" as IRV has (IMO). Articles of Faith are not to be questioned - and often that includes honest assessments. Articles of Faith bring out a sort of "you're with us or you're against us" polarity among the true believers which I find both distasteful, dangerous, and antithetical to the democratic process. They also have the tendency to suck up those who agree with them in principle - just not as a matter of dogma - into accompanying true believer rhetoric that they may or may not agree with. IRV, for example, is often trumpeted as a means to the end of allowing third parties to rise into their imagined rightful place of political dominance.

This is not a view I share, as my support of IRV is simply the support of an enhanced democratic process for its own sake. I'm not inclined to predicate that support on my opinion of where that will or won't lead us. But because I have an almost knee jerk aversion to anything that strikes me as political dogma, political Articles of Faith creep me out, as I am concerned that they may be enacted (or rejected) without sufficient consideration or scrutiny. What are the disadvantages of IRV? Is IRV the only game in town, or are there other alternate voting systems that might be superior?

Given that the topic will come up during the upcoming legislative session - and out of concern that IRV's more dogmatic supporters may frown upon, or even actively disparage, any such analysis - I'm offering a snapshot of voting systems, as well as the potential pitfalls of voting reform, below the fold. Please chime in with opinions or corrections as I don't pretend to be an expert on this stuff.

odum :: On Beyond IRV
Nobody likes the fact that a candidate can win an election with less than 50% of the electorate supporting them. Nobody likes the idea that a vote for one's preferred candidate, who may have no real chance of winning, could prove to help throw the election to the candidate you most abhor.

UVM Prof Tony Gierzynski's terrific study of IRV's implementation is a must-read, and lays out the pros and cons well. While the upside - that is, theoretically bringing a result that is a more accurate picture of the preferences of the voting public - is hard to refute, in this world nothing is perfect. In his piece shortly after the Burlington mayoral election, Philip at VDB reviews the study and gives a bulleted list of some of the drawbacks.

* In 1974, Ann Arbor adopted IRV, only to reject it two years later after a mayoral candidate took 49% on the first round, but lost subsequently by 121 votes.

* "The Thwarted- Majorities Paradox, in which a candidate who can beat every other candidate in direct-comparison may lose the election; the Multiple-Districts Paradox, in which a candidate wins every district individually but manages to lose the general election when the districts are combined."

* And finally, yes, the IRV result That Dare Not Speak Its Name: the "Perverse Outcome," in which increased votes for a candidate lead to that candidate's defeat.


More disturbing are the studies from San Francisco's experience with IRV, which suggests that non-whites, working class citizens, and the less educated were less likely to use their full voting ability at the ballot (meaning they were less likely to fully rank all the candidates and more likely simply to vote for their first preference). In a relative - but very real - sense, the more white, affluent and educated a population was, the more vote they got for their ballots. It's an ugly reality, but it does seem to be just that - a reality. It's hard to feel too thrilled about that result, and it clearly places a burden on supporters to simultaneously endorse a comprehensive voter education program if they are successful. The Burlington demographic spread in the study is less clear, but the following:

...suggests the same dynamics are in play.

This stuff matters, and it's not for the white, educated, affluent crowd to just blow it off as irrelevant (as they often do with inconveniences outside their demographic).

The other potential problem with implementation is (surprise, surprise), the Republicans. Consider the following:

Making such a profound change to the mechanics of Democracy should really have buy in from a majority in each party. Proponents should make it a priority to try to squeeze that Republican number up to at least 50% plus one (a bit ironic, that).

But what other options are there? If the IRV debate does come before the legislature again this session, should the debate on improving our elections system begin and end with IRV?

At the very least, folks should know that there are other models.

The Condorcet Method avoids some of the problems of IRV by selecting the candidate that wins against every other candidate in one-on-one pairings, instead of the way IRV goes to a second choice. From a voter's perspective it works like IRV as voters just rank their choices as 1, 2, 3, etc (both IRV and Condorcet are considered forms of "preferencial voting"). This pairing system makes the behind-the-scenes calculations mathematical, and by making it more arcane, could further exacerbate the understanding gap across demographic groups and limit voter confidence. Still, here's an example of a fascinating election where the  Condorcet results were compared against what the result would have been if IRV had been in play - they are different, and in this case, common sense suggests (at a glance) that the Condorcet result was more democratic, highlighting the comparitively crude nature of IRV's elimination methodology.

Fusion Voting: The following comes from a great diary written by dcsohl, posted earlier this year at a GMD sister blog, the Blue Mass Group:

Fusion voting is an extension of FPTP that relies on parties. Parties are not essential to FPTP ["first past the post" - the current system -odum], but they inevitably creep in, and fusion takes advantage of this. In classical FPTP at a general election, each party nominates a candidate, and the winner is he with the most votes.

Fusion voting allows two parties to share the same candidate. So if the Green Party decides that they are splitting votes off of the Democrats (and enabling Republicans to win), they ordinarily have one alternative: Don't run.

With Fusion voting, they can nominate the Democratic candidate as their own. Now voters can "send a message" and vote for Gore on the Green ticket. If Gore gets 60% of the votes and half of them are Green-based, he can see that environmental issues are very important to a third of the country.

Advantages: "Sending a message"

Fusion is intriguing, but to those who see IRV as the shortcut to radical change through 3rd party ascendency, it probably won't be too appealing.

The most feel-good voting system has got to be Approval Voting. In this system, everybody can vote for as many candidates as they like. The totals are tallied and the most votes wins, but there is no voting "against" anyone, and as such it limits the problem in any system - but particularly in preferencial systems (like IRV) - of so-called tactical voting.

Tactical voting is when voters use their votes or preferencial rankings not to indicate their genuine preferences, but to try and strategically avoid distasteful outcomes. Under the current system, the manifestation of tactical voting is obvious. In preferencial systems, it becomes possible to marginalize potential rivals to one's first choice by voting for non-preferred candidates as a second choice. There were charges of this sort of tactical voting in the Burlington mayor's race, as GOP candidate Kevin Curley was reported to have actively encouraged some supporters to indicate Progressive Mayor Bob Kiss as their second choice in order to skew the runoff results for Democrat Hinda Miller (this despite the fact that Kiss would have been the honest, ideological second choice of few Republicans). There's no evidence that this ocurred on a scale to effect the election, but the potential for such sleaziness is there, and IRV proponents do themselves (and the democratic process) no favors by pretending it isn't.

Approval Voting makes this sort of mischief ineffective, but is opposed by IRV proponents such as the Center for Voting and Democracy because it leads to the most "feel-good" candidate who bugs the fewest people coming out on top, and therefore potentially squeezes out dynamic or challenging candidates.

In any event, it seems clear to me that the buzz in Vermont is entirely too binary; either the current system or IRV - and that the debate over IRV is too binary as well; you're either for it (and for more representational democracy) or against it. For my part, I support IRV (as I've said many times), but I also support a healthy, honest debate on the matter and recognize the unfortunate truth handed down by Arrow's theorem. From Science News:

Is there a best voting procedure? In 1952, Kenneth Arrow, a professor emeritus of economics at Stanford University in Palo Alto, Calif., proved that no voting system is completely free from counterintuitive outcomes. Arrow looked at voting systems that satisfy two harmless-sounding properties. First, if everyone prefers candidate A to candidate B, then A should be ranked higher than B. Second, voters' opinions about candidate C shouldn't affect whether A beats B-after all, if you prefer coffee to tea, finding out that hot chocolate is available shouldn't suddenly make you prefer tea to coffee. These sound like reasonable restrictions, yet Arrow proved that the only voting system that always satisfies them is a dictatorship, where a single person's preferences determine the outcome.

The paradoxical behavior Arrow studied crops up all the time.

Or perhaps we're just faced with another social manifestation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. Perhaps if you look too closely at any human institution, process or component, the results get a little... fuzzy.

All the more reason to move forward with deliberation and without dogmatic preconceptions or preconceived outcomes - but as always, to keep moving forward nonetheless.

For more (and there is much more), check out the Proportional Representation Library, and by all means come back and post on your favorite.

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On Beyond IRV | 25 comments
for my part (0.00 / 0)
I rather like Condorcet, but appreciate the simplicity of Approval. IRV may almost function as a happy medium.

Fusion seems tame enough that if IRV stalls, we should be able to pass something like that in the interim without objection, one would hope.

Nullius perfectus est


Curious (0.00 / 0)
What would fusion change in VT, practically speaking?  I noticed our Treasurer this year ran as a "Democrat/Republican" -- how does that work, if we don't have Fusion voting?  And didn't someone else run as a Progressive/Democrat 2 years ago?

Just curious.  I realize that it has a different feel if you vote for a Governor on the Progressive line, even if a lot of his support comes from his Democratic line as well.


[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
If you get enough write-in votes on another party ballot, and there is no one else on the ballot, you can technically get the other party's nomination too. Some candidates have done this sort of thing over the years to help generate an illusion of cross-party, universal support. Seems kinda icky.

In the case of fusion, that's actually be generated by the electorate. From the ground up. If the Greens give you a clean and clear 10 percent and you won by 2, you'd better pay attention.

Nullius perfectus est


[ Parent ]
Election tweaks (0.00 / 0)
I have been quite public about my support of instant runoff voting. There are tons of other methods, but IRV seems to be the only horse in the running, and the others aren't likely to make much progress, so I think we should be pushing for it.

I do have some reservations:

1. I am somewhat skeptical of most of the election tweaks that have been proposed or put into place to actually change things. That includes stuff like same-day registration, motor-voter, and any of the other mechanisms that have been developed to increase participation. Specifically, I doubt that they have an appreciable impact on participation (because I think registering and voting are already so easy that the only people who don't do it are people who don't give a rat's ass, so they probably wouldn't be bothered to vote even if they got in under the new, easier, registration methods). More importantly to people on the Left, I doubt that they increase the participation by people who are inaccurately termed disenfranchised and thereby push elections to the Left. Still, I am in favor of making voting as easy as possible, even if it doesn't make much difference.

2. I don't think the advent of easier absentee ballotting is a good thing because it takes away from the ability of the voters to continue to gather information up to the election or to respond to late-breaking news, and it reduces candidates' opportunities to reach people right up to the election.

3. I don't think the theoretical flaws in IRV are enough to sink it. You have to work pretty hard to contrive the examples that show IRV doesn't work, and I think those circumstances are far fewer than elections in which IRV works. They're also far fewer than the elections in which a spoiler helps to elect a candidate who is likely opposed by a majority of voters under the current system.

4. I'm also not convinced that IRV is better than a real runoff election. Is it because IRV is more convenient or cheaper? I don't think those considerations count for that much. Is it because fewer people would turn out to vote in the runoff? As you may have already gathered, I'm not overly solicitous of the feelings and wishes of people who can't be bothered to vote, so that's not a big deal for me.

So, if I were voting on the alternatives under a preferential voting system, my ballot would be:

1. Election followed by runoff if no candidate gets a majority.
2. Instant runoff.
3. Maybe some other alternative form of preferential voting.
4. Current system.

It may be too early to do a poll on this, but I think we should keep the discussion going and keep the pressure on our legislators to get this done and move on to the next thing.


[ Parent ]
Majority Rule (0.00 / 0)
Thanks, John, for starting this thread. As one who has put a good amount of time into IRV over the past couple of years, I can say that what I am after is majority rule; I don't really care how we get there. Our leaders should have garnered 50% + 1 of the vote. (Here I add that what I really prefer is proportional representation, so the other 50% - 1 have a seat at the table.)

I would also like to be able to vote for the person I think would be best at the job, rather than against the person who would do the greater damage. I have almost never been able to vote for my prefered candidate.

I'll read your references and check back in later. Thanks again for starting this discussion.


Heading off the "but it's too complicated" argument (0.00 / 0)
I'm none too picky about which of the more democratic/representational voting mechanisms we should use, but there has to be something that will make the "spoiler" role a thing of the past.

Before this discussion goes too far, I do want to hit on one point:

One of the chief arguments against some form of proportional voting is that it's too complicated, and people won't be able to understand it.

The implication of this argument is that Americans are dumber than the all the people in countries who use a proportional voting system. So please, if you're tempted to use the "too complicated" argument, don't.

Other countries successfully taught voters how to use the system, we can do the same here ...

Beware the Everyday Brutality of the Averted Gaze


strongly disagree (0.00 / 0)
Saying an argument like that is off the table strikes me as fixing the debate, and this is too important a discussion not to be able to put all the cards out there.

The places where it works, it has worked for a while, but there are no tracking studies on how long it took to get everybody on board. When we're talking about disadvantged or lower-educated populations not using their full vote, we need to ask these questions - not because we're suggesting they're "too stupid," but because they may already be dubious or cynical about voting in general, and making such a fundamental change (especially by making it a "formula" of sorts, rather than the customary first-past-the-post binary transparency) might be driving the doubt and cynicism further.

In any event, those demographic drop-offs are real, and they are obviously in some way or other related to the added complexity - but that obviously doesn't equal intelligence. To pre-characterize any such examination by claiming it's a way to call people stupid strikes me as tacky, tacky, tacky - and is clearly intended to limit a free and open examination of all the factors.

Sorry to be harsh, m, but I feel pretty strongly about that.

Nullius perfectus est


[ Parent ]
I should have been clearer (4.00 / 1)
I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss how to make sure people understand how to use their vote, I'm saying we shouldn't reject more democratic voting methods out-of-hand simply because they may require education.

There are those who refuse to consider any change from the current system, simply because they don't think people CAN learn to use another system.  That's the argument I am trying to head off. If people in other parts of the world can learn use other voting systems, then people in this country can learn to use them, too.

Beware the Everyday Brutality of the Averted Gaze


[ Parent ]
All Right! (0.00 / 0)
I am thrilled to see a discussion of real options for electoral improvement -- and if it should really find its way into the Legislature, that would be a dream come true.

Despite having read whole pol-sci books about this whole question, though, I'm still digesting some of what you bring up.  One thing you bring up that I've heard before but never adequately understood -- and maybe I'm just being dim -- but how does one tactically pervert IRV?

Take your Curley example, for instance; if he's getting his supporters to list the Prog, Kiss, as their 2nd choice against their preference)... those will only get tallied once Curley himself is eliminated.  So how does he benefit?  I just have never understood how you can go about cheating IRV.

As for the whole voter ed. thing, I think we've got to accept that any changes are going to require that kind of education, since no matter what system we get it won't look the same at the voting booth.  Also, probably, the first few times through will simply not be as pretty until people get a little more familiar and comfortable.


asdf (0.00 / 0)
if he's getting his supporters to list the Prog, Kiss, as their 2nd choice against their preference)... those will only get tallied once Curley himself is eliminated.  So how does he benefit?  I just have never understood how you can go about cheating IRV.

It's using the ballot not to cast your sincere preference, but to do an institutional tag team for the purpose of limiting the influence, clout and performance of another institution by working against their victory. It's a longer term team-up strategy - to vote against the party which you feel may be your main competition to limit their ability to rally or consolodate influence, rather than just voting your choices. Icky.

Nullius perfectus est


[ Parent ]
reduced voting in IRV? (0.00 / 0)
Thank you John for opening up this discussion.  For those who do not know I am a strong supporter and advocate for IRV.  I do not have time right now to digest and respond o the many points that you make...however I would like to start with the issue you raise regarding lower "turnout" or "understanding" by the non-white community.

When discussing whether to do IRV or no it is important to compare it to the current system.  While there may be (and likely are) better systems than IRV, many of them are far more complicated to explain.  In many respect IRV may just be a step (over many decades) towards reforming election systems to the "perfect" system.  But if you look at the typical turnout in the current system of voting (both here in VT and across the country), the turnout among "minorities" is already tipically lower than "caucasian" voters. 

If one then goes to run-off elections I would harbor a guess (I will need to research this more) that the turnout in run-off's (in those places that have them) are even substantially lower.

This system, over time, will empower more people to vote and more people to participate as they start to have more vialble options (third party or not).  This will be true regardless of the demographic that they come from.

I think this discussion will be very helpful for election reform across the board.  It is important to first recognize the flaws in the current system, and then move towards reform with fewer flaws.  In my opinion a perfect system would also have fully public funding for the candidates, open debates (and I mean real debates of the issues) and a number of other changes.  But in politics and our society we need to recognize that perfection is unlikely any time soon and we can at least start by taking steps towards it away from the current, very flawed, system.

Thanks-

Dave Zuckerman


asdf (0.00 / 0)
When discussing whether to do IRV or no it is important to compare it to the current system.

Absolutely. I think by that yardstick, any of these are an improvement.

While there may be (and likely are) better systems than IRV, many of them are far more complicated to explain.

I struggle with this. As I said, the Condorcet method is more appealing to me as a system and as a way of gauging the intent of the electorate - but it's so damn complex. I'd like to believe that complexity shouldn't factor into whether or not it's a good choice, but when I see those demographic stats about IRV underuse among minorities, I shudder at trying to explain a system I can't even get my brain around to someone who likely feels (understandably) that there are already institutional forces trying to disenfranchise them. Under the circumstances, that makes it hard to say "just trust me, smarter folks than I have figured out these equations and it's all quite fair."

As such, I find myself grudgingly gravitating back to IRV, despite its inferior methodology (IMO) to Condorcet.

In many respect IRV may just be a step (over many decades) towards reforming election systems to the "perfect" system.

That would be nice. I can't help but feel we might only get one bite at this apple for a while.

Thanks for stopping by, Dave. I've been hoping for a while that you would join in on a couple of these conversations. Thanks for the input.

Nullius perfectus est


[ Parent ]
Many thanks for chipping in! (0.00 / 0)
In many respects IRV may just be a step (over many decades) towards reforming election systems to the "perfect" system.

I tend to think Odum's right about this one too, but I'm ever an optimist.  One thing missing from this discussion is tactics -- to implement IRV (or any other system), is the jury still out on whether it would mean an amendment, statewide ratification, etc? If so, could it be worded to allow for further changes 40 years from now? (Not to make passing an amendment even harder, but I have to ask.)

And if not, what's the game plan to go about it without tinkering with the VT constitution?


[ Parent ]
and... (0.00 / 0)
Many Repubs are opposed to it (because they benefit the most from the current system), so that's another hurdle.

You can read JD's latest at five before chaos. But why would you do something silly like that?

[ Parent ]
constitutional wording and incremental steps (0.00 / 0)
Thank you for bringing up the constitutional wording question.  If it were to go that route (and that is up for debate as mentioned earlier), there is already thought to make it broad so that it does not specifically indicate the type of voting system...but that it would require a majority winner (thus allowing for a number of systems and improvements as we are able to move along with voter support).

As for incremental steps...I am historically not one to push for that.  As can be noticed with my vote against the catamount healthcare bill.  That issue (universal HC) has been worked on for 20+ years.  For changing our voting system, it has been worked on for about 8.  As voters become more supportive of something outside the current system then I think the options for upgrading it will be easier, not harder.  I too am ever an optimist. 

Considering all the work that has been done to gain momentum around IRV (or proportional voting) I think it might muddy it up to start throwing out lots of other systems for voters to consider and try to grasp.  If people are interested I know of a number of editorials (nationwide) that are supporting moving towards IRV.  I can post those here if there is interest.


[ Parent ]
Thanks, Dave (0.00 / 0)
I think there would be interest in seeing the editorials supporting IRV. As you can see, this thread is getting a lot of interest.

Jack


[ Parent ]
Editorials from around the country (0.00 / 0)
Yes, David, Please post the editorials. Thanks.

[ Parent ]
The editorials...unfortunately the weblinks did not come through well. (0.00 / 0)
Here are a number of editorials and comments.  The links did not come through...but I think you can find many of them at www.fairvote.org  They are a national group that has been working on election reform for years.  I hope this is helpful.

November 27th 2006
Editorial: Pawlenty should reserve IRV judgment
Minneapolis Star-Tribune

The Star-Trib wants Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty to take IRV seriously as a solution to the spoiler problem.

November 27th 2006
Election Proves Instant Runoff Voting Is Catching On in California and Other States
California Progress Report

Steven Hill, director of the New America Foundation's Political Reform Program, offers a rundown of instant runoff voting's growing popularity among diverse American communities in the wake of four November 2006 wins.

November 27th 2006
Time for instant runoff voting
St. Paul Pioneer Press

Citing the Minnesota governor's less-than-majority win in November 2006, a Pioneer Press reader asks that paper to consider instant runoff voting following endorsement of what ended up a "spoiler" candidacy.

November 27th 2006
>From the Daily: Bring back IRV
Michigan Daily

An editorial calls for a return to instant runoff voting in Ann Arbor (MI), where the reform could restore choice to decisive primary elections.

November 26th 2006
In Our View - A Different Way to Vote
The Columbian

Vancouver lawmakers should make good on a 1999 decision to implement an instant runoff voting pilot program in that Washington city.

November 24th 2006
A welcome experiment with runoff votes
Seattle Times

According to the editors, King County and the entire state of Washington should follow Pierce County in restoring voter choice through instant runoff voting.

November 24th 2006
Oakland's IRV Author Believes System Will Work
Berkeley Daily Planet

While the clerks of Alameda County's (CA) three major cities want to implement the same form of instant runoff voting, the author of Measure O, which Oakland passed in November 2006, says minor differences are unlikely to drastically affect election

November 24th 2006
Campaign 2006 In Review
Asian Week

A prominent commentator cites four November 2006 wins for instant runoff voting - and the San Francisco supervisor race where IRV ensured a majority winner - as positive developments for Asian Americans.

November 18th 2006
Instant run-off
Courier Post

A Barnsborow (VA) resident thinks instant runoff voting would have eliminated spoilers early on, quickly producing a majority winner in the contentious U.S. Senate race there.

November 18th 2006
Time for better choices
Timberjay Newspapers

It's time for instant runoff voting to go statewide in Minnesota.

November 17th 2006
Editorial: Minnesota needs new voting system
Minneapolis Star-Tribune

The Star-Tribune calls for statewide instant runoff voting in Minnesota, citing repeated spoilers in gubernatorial elections.

November 16th 2006
Say yes to Instant Runoff Voting
Pasadena Weekly

The Pasadena Weekly endorses instant runoff voting for its inclusiveness and the fiscal good sense it makes.

November 15th 2006
County officials should be up to IRV challenge
Tacoma News Tribune

The newly elected Pierce Co. (WA) Auditor should have no problem implementing instant runoff voting.

November 15th 2006
Next Step: How to Implement Instant Runoff Voting
The Berkeley Daily Planet

As instant runoff voting (IRV) begins to sweep Alameda County, California, officials find ways to standarize and simplify the process.

November 15th 2006
IRV's time has come
The Coloradoan


[ Parent ]
Oh Yeah... (0.00 / 1)
...You\'re the guy who stepped aside as a Progressive to let Peter Welch win. Well, I hope when you see Welch vote for Hoyer, against impeachment, and more silly middle of the road Democratic nonsense that you feel good about yourself.

So much for that \"vote your hopes, not your fears\" bullshit, huh? The Progs are just deal cutters with no ideological backbone. And that really sucks.



[ Parent ]
So simple and yet so untrue (0.00 / 0)
Abbey-

Thank you for the vitriol.  It is true none of us politicans can do the right thing I guess.  Sadly...there was no deal cut. I did not get anything for not running...maybe that shows I am not a good politician.

The reality is I was not excited about Peter...however, I also understand political reality.  There was no way I was going to win.  And even more importantly...there was no way my message and issues would have broken through to the general public.  That is for a couple of reasons.  First...every discussion would have been primarily about the spoiler issue and I would have had to use most of my air time defending my right to run.  Secondly, it would have been very hard to get people to hear in the paid media scenario as I would have had a fraction of the money of Welch or Rainville, much less the innundated airwaves of the US senate race.

I wish it were so easy...but it is not.  I still believe that I can do more for Vermont and for the broader political issues that Vermont can lead on by engaging in the role I am in today.  That may change in the future.  But it was a tactical decision at the time.  I appreciate that there are those like you who disagree.  That is ok...in fact it is good to know there are die-hards who recognize the bigger problems.  Strategy can be a difficult divider.


[ Parent ]
He's like a mosquito bite, Dave (0.00 / 0)
Just don't scratch and it goes away.

Nullius perfectus est

[ Parent ]
Which Comes First... (1.00 / 1)
...Political reality, as you call it, or political cowardice, as it more aptly appears?

I would suggest that the cowardice creates the reality. Or, if you'd rather, the temerity creates the inaction. Or, better yet, the fear denies the hope. You get my point.

And the main problem I have with the Progressives is that you talk a big talk -- to hell with the two parties -- but you cower to them before you even finish your mighty declarations.

Pick the issue, any issue, and it'll prove my point.

BGH? The Progs -- led by the sleepy Pollina -- only wanted to label it. Campaign finance reform? You were all for it until it looked like it might hamper your campaigns (again, I''m speaking of Pollina -- your chairman). GMO seeds? Don't ban them, but vote for a bizarrely complicated and ineffective legal solution. If, as you and I believe, GMO seeds are as bad as we know they are, why allow them in the first place? The war? The Progs were out front supporting the Afghanistan invasion and as slow as the Dems in condemning the Iraqi invasion. And on and on and on I could go.

But the bigger point for me -- beyond these individual issues -- is that the Progs should stand up for what's right, not just what's politicly "realistic." Isn't that what a third party's supposed to be about? But, instead, you seem to want to have it both ways: talk the radical -- or semi-radical -- talk but cave in every time so as to look like some kind of "player."

Come on, David, you guys have six (!) seats in the house and  zero (!) in the senate. What have you got to lose by speaking from your heart and calling the political games what they are: political games.

To be fair, I will applaud you on how you handled the health care debate. You stood outside of the dopey compromise and called it a dopey compromise. And there are many of us out here who'd love to see more of that on many more issues.

Finally, as for you pass in the Welch/Rainville race, of course you didn't receive any concrete gift for sitting that one out. Politics, as you know, don't work that way. What you received, however, was a glowing pat on the back from the liberal political elite for not "mucking up" that race. In effect, you got some political brownie points -- and you know it. Or, if you don't, refresh yourself by going back and reading the liberal darlings like Baruth or Freyne to see how your decision to bow out was covered.

I was wanting to support your congressional effort. To me, you're truly a hopeful Prog, one who -- unlike Pollina -- has proven your ability to reach voters and actually be elected (repeatedly). But I'm hoping you're going to stay real and not let political cowardice become your political reality.


[ Parent ]
IRV (0.00 / 0)
Why do we have to dumb everything down?  It's called preferential voting.  It is used in Australia and Ireland.  In Australia, parties provide their supporters with cards showing them how to rank preferences.  When it is used in multiple member districts (as in elections for the Australian Senate), it becomes a form of proportional representation and the counting is quite complex. 

The problem with calling the system instant runoff is that it is more complex than just the two top candidates.  If no one gets a majority, then the lowest first choice vote-getter is dropped and their second choices are cast.  If still no majority, then the second lowest vote getter is dropped, and their second choices are cast with the first dropped candidate's third choices are cast where the second choices were for the other dropped candidate etc.

In Australia, the third party, once called the Country Party and now improbably known as the National party, has been in perpetual coalition with the LIberal (really the Conservative Party) and has been kept in business by the voting system.  There have been times, this has resulted in these parties being in power when a first-past-the-post system would have resulted in a Labor government.

In Vermont, given the Democratic and Progressive Parties, I suspect that preferential voting would benefit them and hurt the Republicans.  But since voters often vote strategically, one cannot really tell until the system is impletmented.

If anyone is interested in how it become PR (proportional rep) in multi member districts, keep reading.  Since Vermont has multi member districts for State Senate, it is a real possibility.  One votes one's choices.  Let us take a very simple example (in Australia, it gets so complicated that the count takes week).  Let us assume there are two seats to be filled in the district.  If no candidate gets the electoral quota (in this case  50% + 1 votes) then weakest candidate is dropped and second choices cast.  If  the quota is met, then a candidate is elected but any votes over the quota are excess and all the votes are then second (or third) choiced and proportionally divied up and cast usually to a tenth of a vote. 

I love voting systems.  The most fun is MMR and in the New Zealand version the way fractionals are decided is wonderful to behold.


On Beyond IRV | 25 comments
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